Fr Cedric Prakash, presently based in Gujarat, is the recipient of several national and international awards for is work in the field of human rights. He is presently inGoa to address a meeting at Lohia Maidan in Margao today. In an extensive interview with DEREK ALMEIDA he spoke about the ground reality in Gujarat, why Goa could become the laboratory for a communal experiment and the infamous anti-conversion law.
GT:Can you briefly tell us the nature of the work undertaken by you in Gujarat?
Cedric Prakash: In 2001 we started Prashant, a center for human rights justice and peace. Then in February 2002, the Gujarat riots were sparked off and we were literally thrown into that situation. At Prashant, we are involved in several issues related to human rights. We are trying to respond to what is happening in Karnataka and Orissa. We need to focus on the fact that justice has to be at the core of any civil society.
How did the Gujarat riots shape your work as a human rights activist?
The carnage of 2002 shaped all of Gujarat. In many ways it has impacted me. I had been in the midst of the violence. A close friend of mine, Ehsan Jaffery, who was a Member of Parliament, was brutally killed. I have worked with the Muslim community in Gujarat for 14 years and I know a lot of the families that were affected. We not only witnessed this violence but experienced the trauma that a whole community was going through. There must be reconciliation and forgiveness. Unless we bring justice to these victims, we will not have lasting peace.
From Goa, Gujarat looks very calm, Chief Minister Narendra Modi is on the rise…. what is the situation on the ground?
Hitler had a famous Information Minister Joseph Goebbels. And he had a theory that if you tell a lie a thousand times, it will be accepted as the truth. Now, one section of society in Gujarat has gained from this model of development, but a vast section of society like the adivasis, dalits and tribals have not benefited. Gujarat still has one of the highest rates of female feticide. Everyone is saying that Gujarat has a growth rate of 12 percent, which is higher than the national average. But no one is saying that Gujarat had a growth rate of 13.5 per cent before the BJP took over. Take the Nano project for instance. That’s another big lie. If you consider the concessions given to the company, the Nano should be given free to the people.
On the one hand, human rights activists target Modi, on the other, top industrialists want him to be the next PM. How do you explain this?
Look at any fascist regime, whether it is South Africa, Germany or Italy. Every fascist regime had the backing of vested interests -- the industrialists. If you are providing industrialists with a gold mine, why are you not doing it for the small entrepreneur and the pau bhajiwalla.
When saffron groups look at Christians and their leaders, they often bring up the issue of conversion. How do you react to that?
I don’t get trapped in the bogey of conversion. For me this whole debate is not negotiable. Article 18 of the of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights gives me the right to change my religion and Article 25 of the Constitution, gives me the right to practice and propagate my religion. For me there is no debate on this issue.
On 26 March 2003, the Gujarat government passed the anti-conversion law. It was mischievously called the Freedom of Religion Act 2003. The government took five years to frame the rules. Now that the law is in place, they are busy trying to find at least one case of forced conversion.
Now the US Commission for International Religious Freedom is going to visit Gujarat in June and they have received permission from the UPA govt. The big debate is whether the government should have given them the permission.
What is your opinion on that?
Narendra Modi says he is organizing a global investor summit in Gujarat for a vibrant Gujarat. So, you are inviting multinationals, which will come, not because they love Gujarat, but to increase profits. If the CEO can sell the state, then we also need international workshops whether it is Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch. I am not saying the US is a paragon of virtues, but human rights bodies have a right to look into affairs of every state.
Coming back to Modi and the US?
The issue is that the Gujarat identity and the identity of Modi are linked to the United States of America. A lot of money comes from the US to fund the Sangh parivar and Modi. Following the campaign by civil rights groups, Modi was denied a visa to the US. In order for Modi to position himself as the next Prime Minister of the country, he has to get legitimacy from the US and he knows that and he wants that. So he is now in a Catch 22 situation. If he rolls out the red carpet to the industry, he has to open the doors to the rights group. And the US Commission on Religions Freedom is going to look at the textbooks, which have a strong anti-minority bias. They are going to look into the way Christians and Muslims are alienated in the state. They are going to look into many things. If he does not do it, on what basis does he not do it.
Have you ever met Narendra Modi?
No. I have never met him. He has sent feelers….
Why did you never go to meet him?
I never felt the need. I don’t think it is important. For me it is the system. I don’t have anything to tell him. He knows what has to be done. He has to ensure that the constitutional rights of the people are guaranteed.
Don’t you think by meeting him, you would be in a better position to change the system?
I really don’t think so. We invited him to testify before the citizen’s tribunal, which was headed by the retired Supreme Court Justice, Krishna Iyer. One minister Haren Pandya came to testify. A few months later he was shot dead. Today his father is fighting for justice for his son. He very clearly said Modi and Advani are responsible for his son’s death.
Have you received any threats?
Yes. Plenty. The state asked if I need security and protection…
How do you go about doing your work?
The police once told me that I faced a death threat. I refused protection and told them to stop the man trying to kill me. Sometimes personal threats are used as a ploy by the police, to keep a check on your whereabouts and who is visiting you, but my work continues….
Apart from the minorities, do you think there is a large number of people from the majority community who support the work you are doing?
That’s a very difficult question. For years I lived in the Jesuit community, running a school in Ahmedabad. I then moved to the Xavier Social Service Society. Because of my predecessor, who had good contacts with ex-students for 14 years, I had no problem doing anything for the people in the slums. I could get them admitted in hospitals, get top doctors to do free work… people were very co-operative. But then in 2001 when we started Prashant, I thought I was a little hero and said let met go back and knock on the doors of these friends. These are people who had their sons and daughters in Harward and Cambridge. They were well-to-do people. These were not hardcore Hindutva types. I met a lot of people over a period of time. I would say that if I met 300 people then almost 295 would turn around and tell me, the Muslims deserve it. Look what they did to the world trade center. I kept telling them, what does an innocent Muslim in Gujarat have to do with the World Trade Centre…. About five people said we will support you. You tell us what you want.
There is a charge made against human rights activists that you take up the cause of minorities. But when members of the majority community were killed during the Gujarat riots nobody talked about it?
I would like to know who were killed from the majority community. The 58 people in the train bogey, which was set ablaze? Till today we have not established how the train caught fire. Out of the 58, not all were kar sevaks. They were ordinary people. Finally we would like to know who burnt them. On the day the train was set ablaze, we said it was an act of sabotage and we condemned it…
This is a general charge…
I am saying, some Hindus were killed and we condemn the killing of any humans. We are willing to take it up. But what we have not established is how they were killed. Nobody even knows the identity of these 58, whether they were Hindus or Muslims. But here you are targeting an entire community. What proof do you have that any one of these victims (of the riots) was involved?
During the Gujarat riots there were stories of Hindu families saving lives of Muslims. Did you’ll ever interact with those families?
Definitely. There have been exemplary acts of courage. (Phone rings) This lady who is calling me, is a Hindu lady living in the midst of Muslims. Nothing happened to her. Basically you have had different religious communities living together for years. Their problem is not religion or terrorism. Their problem is food, clothing and shelter. Access to clean drinking water. Access to education, primary health care. The poor people are not getting that. What politicians have conveniently done is, divided the people on the basis of religion. I believe when religion is used in a highly manipulative way, it becomes the opium of the people.
In Goa we have a very unique situation. Christians comprise 25 per cent of the population and are therefore a minority. Muslims are about one lakh in number. Now the Muslims are demanding land for a burial ground and it is the Christians who are opposing it? So it’s a case of a minority suppressing a smaller minority.
It is extremely sad that Christians should oppose the way of life of any other religious group. It is one thing if a person creates violence or if a person is a nuisance. India is a secular country and I think the least the Christians can do here in Goa, is to profess the gospel values of Jesus. Don’t accept anything that is wrong, but I don’t think as a Christian, Jesus taught me to discriminate.
We Christians are a small minority in Gujarat. We constitute 0.5 per cent of the population and we fight for our rights. What will we Christians in Gujarat do? Are you (Goan Christians) setting a trend where only the large groups decide what the smaller groups should do? In a secular country, this is non-negotiable and therefore not acceptable.
Do you think Goa is a place for serious communal disharmony?
As far as I know, the BJP and Sangh Parivar have already decided to make Goa the hotbed of their activities. Goa is strategically located. Look at their planning. Look at what they are doing – Gujarat, Orissa, Karnataka. The North is difficult to touch because of Kashmir and other reasons. So its West, East and South. Just after 9/11 I was at a conclave in the US. When my turn came to speak, I raised the question of state sponsored terrorism in Gujarat. I pointed to the state textbooks where Hitler is glorified as a hero. After I had spoken, I was literally attacked by a lady. She said you Christians came to Goa, destroyed our temples and our culture…so that is the thinking. I said okay maam, what do you want me to do about it? Does Indian colonial past justify what is happening in Gujarat today? I might have some Portuguese roots, but just now can we change history? So in Goa they are using the colonial past by equating Christianity with colonialism. Therefore I think Goa should be a place of great concern.
Don’t you agree that the reason why the BJP has not been very successful is because a large section of Hindus do not agree with their ideology?
Definitely. I agree. I am convinced that India will never go the Hindutva way. But my point is, do we have to go through a fascist process in order to arrive at the conclusion that Hitler failed, that apartheid failed, that Mussolini failed. Can’t we learn from the lessons of history? I think there are great Hindus in the country. Hindusim is a very tolerant religion. But we don’t have enough of civil society movements to stop this fascist juggernaut.
The Saffron groups always point to minority communalism. What is your view?
I spoke to a group of 10,000 Muslim in Cochin on Sunday about minority communalism. I am against Catholics saying we have to put up Catholic candidates. I say we should put up candidates who are good. I think minority communalism is as bad as majority communalism. I think the Sangh parivar is forcing us into this ghetto mentality.
One last question. What sort of government would you like to see at the Centre?
I want a secular government. My thinking is very socialist. But I give full marks to the UPA government for setting up the national advisory council which was later disbanded, for giving us the right to information which is a great gift to the country, the national rural employment generation scheme. They did a lot of work on the women’s reservation, but because of allies they could not push it through. … I have very good friends in Sitaram Yeuchery, Prakash Karat, Bindra Karat. But I lost all faith in them after seeing what happened in Nandigram. The violence was not perpetrated by Mamta Banerjee. It was their (Left) cadre’s doing. And they did not take a stand. Navin Patnik is a convenient bedfellow for the Left, but why are they not holding him responsible for the killings in Orissa. Patnaik conveniently blames the BJP. So I am very clear of what government I want to see at the center.
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